McMullen Co. TX - Indian Depredation Claim of William W. Talbert - 1791 ==================================================================== USGENWEB ARCHIVES NOTICE: In keeping with our policy of providing free information on the Internet, data may be used by non-commercial entities, as long as this message remains on all copied material. These electronic pages may NOT be reproduced in any format for profit or for presentation by other persons or organizations. Persons or organizations desiring to use this material for purposes other than stated above must obtain the written consent of the file contributor. The submitter has given permission to the USGenWeb Archives to store the file permanently for free access. This file was contributed for use in the USGenWeb Archives by: Melody Askins maskins@flash.net ==================================================================== Court of Claims of the United States Indian Depredation No. 1791 William W. Talbert v. the United States et al. Deposition of James Erwin, for claimant, taken at San Antonio, Tex., on the 25th day of November, A. D. 1914. Claimant's counsel, Harry Peyton, Esq.; defendants' counsel, John A. Hendricks, Esq. It is stipulated and agreed that the said witness may also be examined and his deposition taken herein used as evidence on behalf of the claimant in the following cases: No. 9215, 9213, Sanders T. Pearce; No. 9576, 9577, Moses S. Pearce; No. 6929, W. J. Askins. Said witness, having been first duly sworn, testifies as follows: (No. 9576, M. S. Pearce; No. 9215, Sanders T. Pearce) Direct examination by HARRY PEYTON: Question. Do you remember having testified in this case once before? Answer. Yes, sir. Question. Did you know Sanders T. Pearce and his son, Moses S. Pearce? Answer. Yes, sir; knew them well. Question. Do you remember a time when the Indians took a lot of horses from Mr. Weaver? Answer. I remember the time, sir. Question. Do you remember that some men came over to Weaver's house from Aligator Lake? Answer. I do, sir. Question. Who was it that came over to Weaver's from Aligator Lake, if you remember? Answer. As near as I can remember, there was Mr. Mose Pearce and Mr. "Shug" Pearce, his brother. Question. Do you remember whether or not Mr. Billie Franklin and Mr. Lowe were along with them? Answer. Mr. Billie Franklin and Mr. Lowe came right on behind them. Question. Do you know what they came down to Mr. Weaver's about? Answer. They came down there to report that the Indians had stole their horses. Question. Whose horses? Answer. Mr. Pearce's horses. Question. Do you know whether these Indians got any horses from Mr. Weaver at that time? Answer. Yes; at that time they got horses from Mrs. Weaver. She was a widow woman. Question. Was she the mother of Mrs. Poteet? Answer. She was the mother of Mrs. Poteet; she was the mother of Mr. Poteet's wife. Question. Whose horses did they get first - Mr. Weaver's or those at Aligator Lake? Answer. They got Mr. Weaver's horses first, then came on up and got the Pearce's horses. Question. Do you know whether they got any of Mr. Franklin's horses at that time? Answer. Yes, sir; I think they did, but I am not positive on that. I am not positive that it was this raid they got Franklin's horses. Question. Had you been over to Aligator Lake at any time while the Pearce horses were there, before the raid? If so, how long before the raid was it that you had been there? Answer. Well, I was there about a week before the Indians made the raid on his horses, because he had his horses in the pen branding there. Question. What sort of horses did Pearce have over there? Answer. Saddle horses and mares. Question. Were you over there after the raid at any time? Answer. Yes, sir; I was there about three days after the raid. Question. Were there any horses left there at Aligator Lake then? Answer. If there was any left there I didn't see them. Question. Did you see the Indians or hear them at the time they came to Mr. Weaver's or Mrs. Weaver's, and got the horses there? Answer. No, sir; I did not see them. Question. Do you know if anybody saw them at that time? Answer. No, sir; I couldn't say. Question. When you went over to Aligator Lake a few days before these horses were taken how many of Mr. Pearce's horses did you see over there? Answer. Well, I think he had the biggest majority of his mares in the pen branding them. I didn't see any saddle horses, except the ones they were riding there, at the pen. The rest of the saddle horses were out at the remuda, or with the remuda. Question. You didn't know how many saddle horses he had there? Answer. No, sir; I couldn't tell you exactly how many saddle horses they had. Question. Did you understand that the Indians had got all the horses that were at Aligator Lake at that time? Answer. That's what I understood; that they made a clean sweep in that raid. Cross-examination by JOHN A. HENDRICKS: Question. Did you follow the Indians at the time about which you have been testifying? Answer. Yes, sir; I followed them. Question. How far did you follow the Indians at that time? Answer. Well, at that time I followed them just about 14 miles this side of Eagle Pass. Question. what direction were the Indians going? Answer. They bore sort of northlike, above Eagle Pass. Question. What direction is Eagle Pass from Aligator Lake? Answer. It's mighty near northwest exactly. Question. Were the Indians going toward the Rio Grande when you quit following their trail? Answer. They were going direct to the Rio grande when we quit the trail. Question. Did any parties follow the trail any father than you followed it? Answer. No, sir; they didn't follow it any father than I followed it, because the horses gave out and we couldn't go any father. Question. What Indians were the depredators thought to be? Answer. Well, you see that is really more than I can say. Some of them said they were Kickapoos and some said they were Comanches. It was hard to tell what tribe they belonged to. Question. Why is it some think they were Kickapoos? Answer. Because that was not the first raid they had made down in that country; they had raided there before. Question. Well, if the Indians crossed the Rio Grande, what Indians would they likely have been? Answer. The Indians that crossed the Rio Grande - it was the Kickapoos that crossed the Rio Grande. Question. Did you have any reliable information as to whether or not those Indians crossed the Rio Grande? Answer. Well, yes, sir; others said that they did cross the Rio Grande. Question. Who told you they crossed the Rio Grande? Answer. Well, sir, I got the information from an old Mexican who knowed all about it. Question. Where did they cross the Rio Grande? Answer. They crossed the Rio Grande just about a mile in below Eagle Pass. Question. What was the Mexican told you the Indians crossed the Rio Grande? Answer. The Mexican that told me - he is dead now; Alejos; he is dead now. ` Question. What Indians did the Mexican tell you they were? Answer. The Mexicans said they were Kickapoos. Question. Why did some of your party think the Indians were Comanches? Answer. That is more than I can say about that part, but they just had that sort of a belief that some of them was Comanches. Redirect examination by HARRY PEYTON: Question. Do you remember when the Stringfields were killed by the Indians? Answer. Yes; I remember when he was killed. Question. Do you know what Indians it was that killed him? Answer. They were the Kickapoos that killed him. Question. Do you know whether Mr. Moses Pearce was along when they followed the Indians that made the raid at Aligator Lake? Answer. Yes, sir; I think he was. Question. There was quite a crowd of men along, was there? Answer. Yes, sir; there was quite a crowd. Question. Do you remember about the Indians getting after Miller and Salmon? Answer. Yes, sir. Question. They saw the Indians, didn't they? Answer. Yes, sir; they did. Question. If they and Mr. Pearce and other men who followed the Indians thought they were Comanches, might they not have been correct? Answer. Well, I guess so. Question. You didn't know anything about what Indians they were except what you heard the Mexican and others say, did you? Answer. That's all. Question. You didn't know anything personally about the Kickapoos or the Comanches either, did you? Answer. Yes, sir; I was personally acquainted with the Kickapoos. Question. I believe you stated that you didn't see any of these Indians at that time? Answer. Not at that present time, I didn't. Recross-examination by Judge HENDRICKS: Question. How did you become personally acquainted with the Kickapoo Indians? Answer. How come I to become acquainted with them? Because I seen them on the border war lots of times; but I wasn't personally acquainted with them. I seen them a hundred times when I have been in Mexico traveling. Question. What other Indians did you did in Mexico besides the Kickapoos when you were traveling? Answer. I even that up with the Comanches in Mexico, too. Question. Did you see any Indians over there besides the Kickapoos and Comanches? Answer. There were other tribes over there, but I never paid any attention to them. Question. Did you know the Mescalero-Apache and the Lipan Indians? Answer. No, sir; I didn't know them, but I have heard talk of them. I never seen them. Question. When did you travel in Mexico, and what part? Answer. All down in about St. Louis Potosi, Tampica, Monterey. Question. Were you in about the Santa Rosa Mountains? Answer. I were, sir. Question. What Indians did you see in the Santa Rosa Mountains? Answer. I seen the Lipan Indians there, I know, and what they call the Lapaches; but whether they were I don't know. Question. Were you not acquainted with the Apache Indians at that time? Answer. No, sir; I wasn't acquainted with them. Question. Did you see very many Indians that they called Lapaches? Answer. I seen a good many. Question. What year was you over there in the Santa Rosa Mountains? Answer. That was in 1892. Question. Were you over there any time during the sixties and seventies? Answer. No, sir; I wasn't over there during that present time. Question. How long after the war was it you were over there in the Santa Rosa Mountains? Answer. I was over there about three years after the war. Question. What Indians did you see in the Santa Rosa Mountains at that time? Answer. At that time I seen the Comanches, the Apaches, and the Lipan Indians. Question. Were you acquainted with the Kickapoo Indians at that time? Answer. I was certainly acquainted with them. There ain't but one tribe of Indian I was acquainted with; that's the Cherokee Indian, because I am half Cherokee myself. I saw Kickapoo Indians at the same time in Mexico, down in below what we call the Caddo Mountains. (Moses S. Pearce, No. 9577; Sanders T. Pearce, No. 9213) Direct examination by Mr. PEYTON. Question. Do you remember the killing of the Stringfields? Answer. I remember the killing of the Stringfields, sir. Question. Do you know whether or not Mose Pearce and his father lost any horses by depredation of the Indians at the time Stringfield was killed? Answer. No, sir; I don't remember. No cross-examination. (William J. Askins, No. 6929.) Direct Examination by Mr. PEYTON. Question. Do you remember when old man Hinds was killed by the Indians? Answer. Yes, sir; I remember that; the time he was killed. Question. Where was he at the time he was killed? Answer. He was living up on the Frio, just about 12 or 13 miles above Tilden. Question. Who were you working for then? Answer. At the time Hinds was killed I was working for Walker. Question. How far were you from the place where Hinds was killed, at the time he was killed? Answer. I was just about 8 miles from there, where he was killed. I was living 8 miles from where he was killed. Question. Did you know where old man Askins lived, or had lived, at that time? Answer. Yes, sir; at that present time when he were he was killed, he was living just about 2 miles above there on the Frio. Question. Did you know whether the Askins had any horses at that time? Answer. Yes, sir; they had horses at that present time. Question. Did you hear anything about the Askins losing any horses about the time Hinds was killed? Answer. Yes, sir; at the time Hinds was killed they claimed to lose 30 head of horses. Question. Did you know anything personally about the killing of Hinds? Answer. No, sir; I wasn't there at the time he was killed. Cross-examination by Judge HENDRICKS: Question. Did you follow the Indians when Hinds was killed? Answer. No, sir; I did not. Question. Did you know what Indians committed that depredation; killed Hinds? Answer. Only just what I heard; they said they were the Comanches that killed him.